Getting Financially Intimate With Your Partner

[00:00:00] Nathan Astle Not sure it's actually the money that causes the problems. It's how we go about working with money. It's everything else that we attach to the money.

[00:00:11] Jennifer Borget When you're in a new relationship, money probably isn't the first or second thing you and your partner talk about. But as you get to know your partner, money should enter the conversation at some point. While it's not always the most natural subject to discuss, it's important.

In today's episode, we're going to discuss how to get financially intimate with your partner. From navigating sticky subjects to advice on how to split household expenses, we've got you covered. Today, I'm joined by Nathan Astle, the founder of Relational Money. Nathan is a licensed marriage and family therapist and a certified financial therapist. He's an expert in helping his clients navigate the emotions that come with money and guiding them through becoming financially intimate with their partner.

Later, I'll be joined by Kristin Krause, senior director with the Advisor Solutions Department at Northwestern Mutual. Kristin will guide us through how to approach financial planning as a couple.

Now you know our experts. Let's learn how to get financially intimate. So welcome. Thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited to chat today because this is a topic I know that a lot of people can feel touchy about. But before we dive into talking about relationships and money, I'm curious to know more about you. Can you just introduce yourself for our listeners?

[00:01:29] Nathan Astle I'm Nathan Astle. I'm a certified financial therapist and a marriage and family therapist. I talk about the touchy-feely uses when it comes to money. One thing that I try to dispel pretty quickly is that money is just about numbers—because it's really not. Money is inherently emotional. It's inherently connected to our values. It's connected to our traumas. It's connected to our past. So, when we're making money decisions, it's not just about what makes most financial sense. It's also what feels right or feels wrong in our bodies. And there are a whole lot of pieces to our money. It's not really that simple as much as we wish it was.

[00:02:11] Jennifer Borget Since it is this touchy topic for a lot of people, why do you think it's so hard to talk about—or is there even more to it?

[00:02:20] Nathan Astle I would say it's one of the most touchy topics there are, because there's a whole lot of judgment that goes into money, and there's a whole lot of should or should not ... I should do this or shouldn't do this with my money ... because there's a lot of moralizing, right? We personalize our money a lot because it's deeply connected to how we feel about ourselves.

[00:02:47] Jennifer Borget I know in Northwestern Mutual's recent Planning and Progress Survey, most of the respondents said they think you should have this money talk when you're serious in a relationship, well ahead of marriage or living together. Is that what you typically see?

[00:03:03] Nathan Astle That's what I wish people did. The way I think about is, “Okay, how much money talk do we have as the relationship is progressing?” Honestly, there are some natural indicators, like if we're talking about moving in together, just the same way we might talk about sex or other kind of important things as relationships progress. But yes, we need to be talking about money often because otherwise we just get isolated. All of us have money experiences. We never had an unemotional money experience. So, let's talk about it. Let's take the shame away because shame thrives in isolation.

[00:03:46] Jennifer Borget Yeah. And your experience with what you've seen with couples and relationships, you have such a unique perspective. I didn't even realize you could find a therapist that specifically helps people with this, which is so cool. Do you think people are honest when they're starting out in relationships and talking about money? Or do you think people aren't, and that's what causes problems later on down the road?

[00:04:13] Nathan Astle Lack of honesty certainly causes problems down the road. What I see a lot more is what I call “toe dipping” behavior: “I'm going to share a little bit and see how you respond.” And then if you respond, “Well, I might get my toes in a little more.” Part of that honesty is just how trust builds. You know, if we had a trauma dump on our first date, the other person might not be very validating or very empathetic. So, it's okay that we toe dip on some level. But again, as the relationship progresses, it is important that we're moving toward transparency. We're moving toward honesty because it almost becomes like the culture of the relationship: “Yeah, we talk about money because that's just what we do. Of course we talk about money, just like we talk about anything else.” It's important to be able to bring that stuff up.

And there is a really important concept, maybe too much for this podcast, but it's called financial infidelity, where the expectation is that we're open and honest about money matters, but that trust is broken. Maybe it looks like secret bank accounts or a secret credit card, secret debt. Maybe it looks like just little lies about how much something costs or hiding purchases. Whatever it is, that kind of stuff does hurt; it hurts relationships. And so again, we want to move when it's safe, when it makes sense. We want to move toward “Hey, we're a team, and money is part of our shared goals; money is part of our shared responsibilities.”

[00:05:56] Jennifer Borget Are there any good questions that a couple could ask? Maybe they've been dating for a little while and are wanting to broach this topic—is there anything that's a good way to spark this conversation?

[00:06:06] Nathan Astle As people are dating and getting to know each other, just asking, “How did you grow up around money? How did your parents treat money? What are some of your early money memories?” A lot of what I'm doing as a financial therapist is asking people where they came from when it comes to money. What I'm looking for (not necessarily what you or the audience seems to be looking for) is what some of the emotions and beliefs behind those memories are—you know, do I get freaked out when I start talking about money? Is it fear when I have big money emotions, or shame? Am I afraid to have money conversations because that's what Mom and Dad did, and did they have big issues around money? This is all really good stuff, too; as appropriate, share with each other. Honestly, I just think it's kind of fun.

[00:06:57] Jennifer Borget It's kind of like getting someone's backstory, you know, because you hear so much about what you're doing now, and sometimes there's a lot of pressure around that when you're dating. I know it can be hard to be honest, especially if you feel like you're hiding something, if you're like, I really don't want to talk about this. So how can someone who maybe is hiding money or maybe hiding spending problems kind of come clean with their partner? Are there any strategies for starting a harder conversation like that?

[00:07:29] Nathan Astle One of my favorite things to recommend is to be clear about what we need before we have the conversation. So it's like, “Hey, Babe, I need to talk to you about something that's important to me. And I care about you. I love you. I want us to work out, and so I really want to be honest about something I'm having a hard time with. What I kind of need from you, just if you can try and listen. I'm happy to answer questions, but maybe afterward.”  

What we're doing is we're preparing our partner, and that might be scary. And it might be scary for your partner to hear that, but we want to be clear about what we need because it's really easy to just...

[00:08:10] and then our partner is going to respond the way they're going to respond. And if we can kind of give them a little bit of like, “Hey, what I'm looking for is X in this conversation,” that can be really helpful. I also think it's important to not say, “You can't be mad at me.” That doesn't feel fair to me; people have responses. But also it's okay to say, “Even if you're upset or mad, please interrupt me here.” People are allowed to have emotions, but we are still able to ask for behaviors, if that makes sense.

[00:08:52] Jennifer Borget You notice how people's backgrounds influence their relationships with money. What if someone grows up in a really affluent home, and someone else grew up in a home where they really didn't have much? What kinds of things are they usually trying to work through?

[00:09:07] Nathan Astle Our relationship with money is almost exclusively defined by our past. And it's really important that we're being curious about our past and our partner’s past. It's never just about the financial thing that's right in front of you. It's also all the stuff that we bring with us. Two of the biggest things that I think are most helpful: One, what are your values around money? I think it’s a really important starting point—okay, what does my money mean to me? And what purpose do I want it to fill? If I value financial freedom, great, what does that look like? How would I know that I'm living according to my values? I value fun; great, what does that look like financially? So, one, checking in with your values, and then two is just as much as you can, be intentional.

[00:10:05] Jennifer Borget You said two things that really kind of stuck out to me. At the very beginning, you were saying about not even trying to say “good” and “bad.” And I like that because it's true. Money's neutral, right? It's kind of like how you handle it, how you maneuver it, what you decide to do with it with your intention behind it and with your intention having a value and making sure that that is aligned. I think if you don't do that, then that's when you can slip into, like you were saying, cultural things your parents told you, like “money doesn't grow on trees,” these things that you hear. But maybe you're not making your own slogans or something to pass on and to use and remember. Maybe we all need to take a pause and think about what our values are, what's our intention, what our slogan is going to be with money.

[00:10:54] Nathan Astle That also leads into the needs and wants thing: What's a need for me may not be a need for you. What's a want for me may not be a want for you. That's why I struggle with “Well, that's a luxury.” Maybe it's not. Maybe your five-dollar Starbucks thing is incredible value because that means I get to feel good. Maybe that's my little time. Maybe that's the little time I had to go with my dog and get a cup. Who am I to say that that is not a need in your life, as long as you are intentional about what value that brings and whether that financial behavior aligns with my values.

[00:11:34] Jennifer Borget What do you do if you and your partner have different spending habits? Maybe you do have different values, and that's what's bringing in different spending habits. What strategies have you seen that help create successful relationships with money that work for both when they have these different kinds of habits?

[00:11:51] Nathan Astle I love the yours, mine and ours system, which is basically okay. We have this income coming in. The income we have to see is shared, because I think there are important power dynamics that come up if we are like, “Well, that's your money, that's my money.” The income is shared, and it's really important also that we value paid labor the same as we value unpaid labor. Maybe you're making more money because I'm staying home with the kids or something, but you couldn't go make more money if it wasn't for the unpaid labor I'm doing at home.

So, I think that's a really important starting point: Money that is coming in is ours. First, what are our shared responsibilities? What are our shared expenses? Well, we both benefit from our house or the rent, or we both benefit from groceries, that kind of stuff. But then there are some things that you care about that I just don't and that I care about that you just don't. That's fine. That's actually really good and normal. We need to have autonomy in our finances, too.

What I recommend is we gather all the income, we put it toward their shared expenses first, and then with what's left over maybe I want to spend a hundred dollars a month on video games because that's something meaningful that I really like. And you want to spend it on whatever you want. We just set that money aside. Nate gets a hundred dollars a month. Jennifer gets a hundred dollars a month. And I don't get a say in what you do with your hundred, and you don't get a say in what I do with my hundred, as long as we're still respecting our shared responsibilities.

[00:13:39] Jennifer Borget Do you think—when there's a huge wage difference between a couple, how does it come with that “yours” part with splitting the expenses? Do you do this mathematical equation of “Well, it can't be 50/50 because I make more, so the mortgage is ... you make this percentage less than me, so you can pay this percentage.” Do you have any kind of way to navigate that?

[00:14:03] Nathan Astle There is some research that shows that people who have joint accounts tend to have higher relationship satisfaction. But I don't think it's that cut and dried either (“Well, I'll just get a joint account, and it'll all be fixed”). I think the joint account allows for more transparency, which then empowers both individuals to feel like they're part of a team. As far as "I pay for half the mortgage. You pay for half the mortgage,” maybe that works for certain couples; maybe for others, it's “Let's just view it as all one pot, and it all comes out of the same pot anyway.” Honestly, the longer I've been doing this, I think I'm not sure it's actually the money that causes the problems. It's how we go about working with money. It's how we communicate about money or the lack of communication around money. Maybe it's our money traumas or stuff that we haven't worked through that's causing the issue. It's not actually about the money. It's everything else that we attach to the money.

[00:15:11] Jennifer Borget What a great conversation. I found it insightful to hear Nathan talk about judgments associated with finances. Whether we like it or not, we all make judgments, good or bad, about money, and those judgments impact the way we feel about ourselves and others.

Next, I spoke with Kristin Krause. Kristin brings her insights into how financial advisors can help couples. Let's dive in. We're talking about this topic today: couples and planning together financially. Why do you think it's important for couples to plan financially together?

[00:15:46] Kristin Krause My perspective is this: One, I think it's important for couples to plan financially together because you are both contributing to your shared financial picture no matter how you contribute—financially or non-financially. In fact, committing to financially planning together can not only strengthen your relationship, but it can be fun when you actually experience those big wins or the quick wins that you once talked about from a desire or a goal. There are moments to celebrate in that type of financial planning and dialog.

I'd also say it's not uncommon for one partner in a couple to desire to take the lead. But my belief is that it's important to be aligned on your short-term and long-term goals. So although you might see that one or the other takes a more bigger leadership role in budgeting or collaborating and communicating on some of the decisions, I'm a big believer and advocate for making sure that you both equally lean in so you're having the right dialog on what you're trying to achieve short term, middle term and long term.

Committing to financially planning together as a couple, as a unit, the sooner the better because it really sets you up for those successful conversations and most importantly, the decision-making that's going to need to happen as your life and financial picture becomes more complex.

[00:17:14] Jennifer Borget Let's jump to some tactics that couples should discuss, maybe when they're out at brunch or bringing these things up at some point when things get serious in a relationship. How much should you combine your accounts versus keeping things separate?

[00:17:28] Kristin Krause I think this is really something that every couple needs to decide for themselves. One, you could combine everything. I think one could argue that this would make things a lot easier. It's much more simple. It's much more streamlined. You're all looking at the same numbers in the same spaces and areas, and instead of multiple accounts all over the place, you likely have fewer accounts. Everything's in a single pot. It's a little easier to see what you have all in one place.

But there are pros and cons to that approach. Having everything in one place can make it harder for simple things like buying gifts for each other or even just having the freedom to buy something you really want without question. Sometimes couples just find it easier to spend their own money versus [having] an outright joint account, so that's another option. There are many couples that have found that they want to keep their finances and their accounts completely separate. But if you take that approach, I would still encourage you to make sure that you're very open and honest around your philosophies and the balances and how you're spending or saving.

And then I would say the last option ... personally, I'll be transparent, this is the option that my spouse and I take. And again, there's no right way or wrong way. There are many considerations, but this seems to work best for us ... is a hybrid option. And what I mean by hybrid is that we have joint accounts for most, but we've done the math on what is that surplus extra that we could afford to keep separately. And that's our “I get to spend, and you can't ask me any questions” type of accounts.

I think there are many options, and you really just have to lean into the dialog to figure out what's going to work best for you. And I also think that sometimes that philosophy on how you want to go about it could change over time as your financial picture and your family or your household changes as well. So, there's not one right size, and I don't think that it has to stay that way from the moment you start it. I think it could change as you need it to.

[00:19:30] Jennifer Borget So, Kristin, meeting the parents is a huge step in a relationship. But when it comes to meeting a financial advisor as a couple, what's that conversation usually like?

[00:19:39] Kristin Krause I think it's kind of twofold. One, when should you engage an advisor as a couple? And two, what is the conversation like? I'll address the first question. It may not be a second date kind of meeting meeting with an advisor for the first time, but my encouragement would be that as things get serious, assuming you're a new couple, the sooner you have this conversation, the better. And believe it or not, these conversations, like I said earlier, can be really fun and interesting.

To answer the second question, what is that conversation typically like? First, I anticipate it'll actually probably uncover a lot of things that you have discussed as a couple, but maybe you never really delve into the detail that those types of discussion points actually deserve. For many of our listeners, Northwestern Mutual's 2024 Planning and Progress Study actually found that about a third of parents who are saving for college are planning to fund the entire cost. I came out of school with loans. I would have loved to have not had that. I would have loved to get my first job and start saving or putting it toward other things, but that just wasn't our reality. My spouse, on the other hand, was different. He had his college funded by parents, and that worked really well for them. Now that's a prime example of a couple coming together that had a different environment growing up, and in turn, it does impact how you think about things. At the end of the day, our advisor leaned in and asked us those detail-oriented questions, and it allowed us to come to a space to say, “If we could do it, we would like to pay for college for both of our kids. And if we come to a point where financially number-crunching-wise, we can't do that because of something else, then what are the trade-offs that need to happen?”

I would say lastly, another big one that many of us think about is retirement. That's a place where many couples might not have already dug into the detail it deserves. Usually, this conversation centers around balancing what you want today with what you want in the future. And this is where couples will often find that they may not have exactly the same understanding of where each other is at, both financially and philosophically. It's not uncommon to find that couples haven't thought this through deeply enough around these different topics, and an advisor can create a comfortable, safe environment to help you navigate the type of detail in the dialog and can ultimately turn around some thoughts and considerations for couples to be thinking about in all sorts of stages of your relationship.

[00:22:19] Jennifer Borget We talk a lot about blind spots that Northwestern Mutual advisors can often help people uncover. Is this one of those things that is a common blind spot, or what are some common blind spots that people have?

[00:22:30] Kristin Krause I think we would be surprised how close a couple can be and yet they might not be thinking exactly the same thing about future goals. You may find a couple that is almost identical when it comes to experiences or morals, and they don't have an aligned perspective on the same future goals. Everyone is unique, and it's not uncommon that the conversation alone around financial planning can uncover opportunities in places where a couple may not have been totally on the same page that maybe they thought they were.

There can be a lot of financial things that you might not think of. So, for example, maybe you both purchased a home and have years of payments ahead. Maybe one person wants to talk about how they're going to use their bonus that they receive at work, and the other person wants to use it completely differently. These are blind spots, right? And I think that our advisors will often ask, “What happens if something prevents one or both of you from working? How would you continue funding those things?” A lot of our advisors will focus on everything going right. But our advisors will also help you plan for scenarios where something maybe doesn't go according to plan. Maybe we're all in denial that everything is going to stay exactly on track, exactly how we imagined it. We need someone to challenge us about those disruptive “But what if, what if?” And knowing that you plan for those types of blind spots, or what ifs, can really add a lot of peace of mind.

[00:24:19] Jennifer Borget I wanted to share a few of my takeaways from this episode. First, yours, mine and ours. I hadn't considered breaking it down like this before, and I think it's such a useful system no matter what your income is. You cover your household expenses while having the autonomy to use your money the way you choose.

Next, everyone has a different experience. We learned our lessons about money early on from our parents and family. Have conversations with your partner to understand where they're coming from, because no two people are going to have the same experience and finally get on the same page. Kristin shared that you'd be surprised how many people aren't on the same page when it comes to money and long-term goals. If you're not heading in the same direction, it will be hard to feel aligned.

Visit Northwesternmutual.com/podcast for more resources to help guide your conversation, including some conversation starters for couples.

[00:25:19] Speaker 3 Financial representatives do not render tax advice. Consult with a tax professional for tax advice specific to your situation. Northwestern Mutual is the marketing name for the Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company (NM) and its subsidiaries in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Not all Northwestern Mutual representatives are advisors. Only those with Advisor in their title or who otherwise disclose their status as an advisor of Northwestern Mutual Wealth Management Company are accredited as NMWMC representatives to provide advisory services.